Nerfing Springy & Spitfyre for DDTC

The DDTC ships in the Terran fleet

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Nerfing Springy & Spitfyre for DDTC

Postby Hieronymos » Thu May 14, 2009 4:45 pm

EDIT: 5/20/09 This thread will be used for determining initial spec nerf for both Springy, Spitfyre, and the Teladi Kestrel--which screws up galactic M5 standards like the first two do to their respective classes.

(Continuation ofa pm converstation between Spacefueladdict and Hieronymos)

..Sorry, but I've never worked with the X3 Editor, being technically deficient, and don't know how to view specs like ship speed, yaw/pitch/roll, acceleration, shields, etc.

As you've no doubt seen, I use a more archaic method for reworking ship specs.
Terran "Imperator" M2 Class Star Destroyer: M2/M1 Hybrid
Price: MCr. 127.5072. [188% of Colossus's; hugely above avg.]
Speed: 67.7m/s [3R spec]
Steering: 0.7rpm [avg.]
Shields: 9
Shield Type: 2Gj [=18Gj total: usual Terr. M2 strength is 12 or 14Gj]
Shield Generator: 18,000 [Valhalla's]
Hull: 600k [Tyr has 400k; Valhalla 800k]
Hardpoints: 6: Front/L/R/Back; U/D.
Weapons: 28:
Front/Back/L/R 6x: DD_TERR_M1_RILE: EMPC,EEMPC,MAAM,SSC,PSP,CIG,PPC,Tractor,IonPG,IonC,EBC,FAA;
Up/Down 2x: DD_TERR_M1_UPDO: EMPC,EEMPC,MAAM,SSC,PRG,CFA,PBC*,PALC*,EBC,FAA,GC.
please note 2 new TCockpit turret designations
Laser Charge: 355,000 [M2 level]
Laser Recharge: 3,220 [halfway between M2 and M1 level]
Cargo: 16,120 XL [huge; above avg]
Hangar: 28 [Odin has 44]
Marines: 20--but cannot be used for boarding
Missles: same as Tyr: Wraith, Poltergeist, Spectre + Dragonfly, Rapier, Wasp, Silkworm, Wildfire, Tempest, Thunderbolt, Beluga, Hammerhead, Typhoon

Ship Description: “Rumored to be reverse engineered from an alien derelict found nearly a thousand years ago, the powerful Terran Imperator M2 Class Star Destroyer is a unique hybrid with an identity crisis that cannot decide if she is Carrier or Cruiser. By far the most heavily shielded warship in the Terran fleet, she carries armoring second only to the Valhalla Cruiser, but has the speed of the lighter Tyr class Cruiser. Her heavy laser armament is consistent with that of a Terran M1--in other words equal to a Split Python M2! She also carries 28 fighters internally. Intended primarily for use as a clandestine base for Terran Naval Intelligence operations in Commonwealth territory, the Imperator has an enormous cargo bay for extended cruises, and can mount many Commonwealth heavy weapon varieties and missles. This makes her the most tactically flexible major combat vessel in the Terran fleet, and makes her able to resupply herself in enemy territory during wartime. Her only drawback--as a carrier--is her small fighter bay. As a cruiser, her turrets are small by Terran standards, and her weapons generators closer in size to those of a carrier. Additionally, the Imperator is extremely expensive, which will ensure that she is never used widely by the Terran military."

COMMENTS: ISD as M2. M2/M1 Hybrid.


For nerfing Springblossom, I would personally first look at the other 3 Terran/ATF M6's specs..and bring Springy's specs closer to the averages or means they reflect, while hopefully still preserving Springy's identity as the premier high-speed "boom-and-zoom" corvette. Her remarkable speed is what really sets her apart from all other M6's; and makes her virtually invulnerable to attack by almost anything--when well piloted.

Her speed at 360m/s (with steering of 6.0 to boot) is almost 300% of Katana's (at 136m/s), and Vali and Vidar are even slower. Compared to Commonwealth M6's the fastest Dragon variant has 172m/s.

Preferred Option I would consider for reinventing Springy:
M6/M3+ Hybrid "Light" Corvette: preserving much of her 'swiftness'--but sacrificing offensive power or shielding, plus cargo. Thus, something like
speed 255m/s;
4.8 steering;
reduce hull from 45k to 37.5k;
shields reduced to 400Mj;
3,250 Mw Shield Gen'r (Katana's);
reducing her back turret to 1x from 4x (can still mount SSC to toast any M5 or M4 capable of tailing her);
reducing laser recharge from 570 to 465;
reducing her cargo from 2k to 1.3k (Katana's; note that the ATF M6's are 850 & 950);
price up 25% to MCr. 7.574

Comment: with above specs she's still almost twice as fast as next closest M6's, and with laser recharge of 465 she's got virtually unlimited juice as long as she switches to MAML when power drops. Her weak hull makes her vulnerable to fast MD-armed M4's, and her speed still allows her to break contact with everything except M5's an a few M4's.

Maybe this tweak is too hard on her..whatcha' reckon SFA?
Last edited by Hieronymos on Wed May 20, 2009 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nerfing Springy & Spitfyre for DDTC

Postby Pelador » Thu May 14, 2009 6:01 pm

Hieronymos wrote:..Sorry, but I've never worked with the X3 Editor, being technically deficient, and don't know how to view specs like ship speed, yaw/pitch/roll, acceleration, shields, etc.

As you've no doubt seen, I use a more archaic method for reworking ship specs.


That is a fair point H. You can tweak stats till your blue in the face. But as far as ships go sometimes removing oneself from the mathematics and getting into the seat of one for a test drive is the better and more intuitive method of gauging "character". Stats should never replace that in my view they just help "engineers" get close. Quality is too dynamic and variably individual to base it solely off an exercise of distributions ;).

Theres an interesting book called "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintence" - by Robert Pirsig that explores the relationship between form and function and the ability of appreciating things better due to understanding the underlying form, sort of the marrige between the two.
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Re: Nerfing Springy & Spitfyre for DDTC

Postby Hieronymos » Fri May 15, 2009 7:44 pm

I'm with ya' P. Pisig's introduction to Zen principles was spot on, and was part of my inspiration to actually ordain for 4 years as a Buddhist forest monk in Thailand. Living those principles is easier said than done; but I do my best.

Regarding the 69 ship specs for DDTC, the first step is fairly Theoretical. Almost all of the DDTC fleet is inherited from DDRS 3R. And almost all of these retain their 3R "personalities", with most of the same specs as the Rebalanced version of DDRS.

DDRS ships are generally either one of two types: "Improved Vanilla" are roughly 20% more capable overall, spec-wise than their vanilla counterparts. The "Radical Departure" ships fill functions not found in vanilla (like the Boron Tigerfish Flak Corvette); but are also spec'd to be overall superior to and more desirable than vanilla. The Impr. Vanilla ships are generally easier to spec, because they're more or less completely extrapolated from each race's ship of the same class, and generally follow that race's established "flavour" of naval design.

The next step is betatesting, which allow a variety of experienced to very experienced players to "test drive" as many of the ships as possible, and then make assessments. Are they to powerful? Not powerful enough? And so on. And they then make reccommendations like "She's plenty fast, but Her helm is too sluggish..give her another 2-3rpm of max. steering."
Betatesting is when we all need to speak up, to let our likes and dislikes be known, as in if most of us don't like something about a ship, the fans won't either.

Ships entering testing that were spec'd way out of line in the theoretical draft, get respec'd first, then hopefully tested a bit more before the final spec Draft coalesces with changes for the rest of the fleet. Hopefully, as with Rebalanced, all of the non-weapon specs will be ok by that stage.

During the last major betatesting process for DDRS Rebalanced, there were lots of ships that were just too heavily armed. Too many mass drivers and other special weapons, especially, that made the DDRS combat missions insanely difficult, and players and testers complained. So in the end, we had to tone them all down during the first 2 or so releases of the general mod release.

For DDTC, we'll be releasing some new ships types never before seen, like the Capture Specialists. Hopefully we can get some real capping pros to test drive those babies to provide cogent feedback. XTC also really mixed up the weapon offerings; discontinuing many and replacing them with all-new weapons. Not to mention 4 new beam weapons. There are now plwnty of new DDTC custom turret designations enabling some pretty potent weapon combinations. Which may be just too damned strong.

Betatesting is also an excellent form of Peer Review. After the First Draft, we'll probably all find ourselves more or less in agreement about the new lineup. That's pretty much what happened last time around. But we'll have to see.
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Nerfs to Springblossom, Spitfyre, & 2 Kestrals

Postby Hieronymos » Wed May 20, 2009 10:02 pm

Edit: changed notation for L/R turrets: use actual vanilla 1x size + DDTC custom turret designation.
EDIT 6/27/09: increased Springy's cargo bay
Terran "Springblossom" M6 Class Corvette: nerfed Springy specs for DDTC
Price: MCr. 7.2648 [125%% of Springy's vanilla spec]
Speed: 244.3m/s [down ~33% from 360m/s]
Steering: 4.30rpm [down from 6.0]
Shields: 3
Shield Type: 200Mj [=600Mj total: vanilla spec]
Shield Generator: 2,650 [down from 3,800]
Hull: 45k [vanilla spec]
Hardpoints: 4: Main; L/R; Back.
Weapons: 14: Main 6x: n/c to vanilla spec
L/R 1x: D_TERRAN_M3:: EMPC,EEMPC
Back 4x: n/c to vanilla spec.
Laser Charge: 13,000 [down from 19,000]
Laser Recharge: 420 [down from 570]
Cargo: 3,030 XL [up from 1,300 XL in v0.8.5]
Hangar: 0
Marines: 5
Missles: same

COMMENTS: The specs pretty much speak for themselves. At 244m/s she's still the fastest M6 in the galaxy, and still about twice as fast as any other Terran/ATF M6, with 30-50% more cargo capacity, but 40% weaker shields, and ~30% weaker shield/weapon power. This, imo, pute her on par with the DDTC M6 offerings.

Done: Complete as per above specs.

Terran "Spitfyre" M3 Class Heavy Fighter: nerfed Spitfyre specs for DDTC
Price: MCr. 2.9096 [vanilla spec]
Speed: 290.4m/s [down ~33% from 452m/s]
Steering: 43.3rpm [down from 78.7rpm]
Shields: 4
Shield Type: 25Mj [=100Mj total: increased from vanilla spec of 75Mj]
Shield Generator: 675 [vanilla spec]
Hull: 7,500 [vanilla spec]
Hardpoints: 1: Main; Back.
Weapons: 10:
Main 8?x: n/c to vanilla spec
Back 2?x: n/c to vanilla spec.
Laser Charge: 7,000 [down from 9,000]
Laser Recharge: 220 [down from 270]
Cargo: 182 L [down from 212 L]
Hangar: 0
Marines:
Missles: same

COMMENTS: This spec change, imo, allows her to "blend in" with the other 2 vanilla Terran M3's, and puts her on par with the DDTC M3 offerings. She's still pretty frickin' mean.

Done: Complete as per above specs.

Teladi "Kestral" M5+ Class Light Fighter: Kestral nerfed for DDTC
Price: Cr. 280,736. [125%% of Kestral's vanilla spec]
Speed: 389.3m/s [down ~33% from 605m/s]
Steering: 42.0rpm [n/c]
Shields: 4
Shield Type: 1Mj [=4Mj total: down 20% from 5Mj]
Shield Generator: 90 [down ~35% from 130]
Hull: 2,000 [vanilla spec]
Hardpoints: 2: Main; Back.
Weapons: 4:
Main 3?x: n/c to vanilla spec
Back 1?x: n/c to vanilla spec.
Laser Charge: 13,000 [down from 19,000]
Laser Recharge: 37 [n/c]
Cargo: 70M [up from 55 M]
Hangar: 0
Marines:
Missles: same

COMMENTS: This should do it.

Done: Complete as per above specs.

Teladi "Advanced Kestral" M5+ Class Light Fighter: Advanced Kestral nerfed for DDTC
Price: Cr. 314,455. [145%% of Kestral's vanilla spec]
Speed: 401.7m/s [down ~33% from 605m/s; sl. faster than nerfed Kestral's 389.3m/s]
Steering: 50.0rpm [n/c]
Shields: 5
Shield Type: 1Mj [=5Mj total: up 20% from 4Mj]
Shield Generator: 90 [down ~35% from 130; same as nerfed Kestral's]
Hull: 2,500 [vanilla spec]
Hardpoints: 2: Main; Back.
Weapons: 4:
Main 3?x: n/c to vanilla spec
Back 1?x: n/c to vanilla spec.
Laser Charge: 1,630 [up from 1,400]
Laser Recharge: 39 [n/c]
Cargo: 74M [up from 50 M; but still below Harrier avg. of ~110 S]
Hangar: 0
Marines:
Missles: same

COMMENTS: This should do it.

Done: Complete as per above specs.
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Re: Nerfing Springy & Spitfyre for DDTC

Postby Rednoahl » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:06 pm

I think the nerfs to Springy and Spitfyre are justified, however the kestrel nerfs I really don't like. In my opinion it would have been better to leave the speed as vanilla, but reduce the steering as bit and alter the weapons just to IREs and reduce its laser gen a lot and missiles just to mozzys. To me it seems logical that the Teladi would develop an incredibly fast ship with a decent cargo bay for smuggling or as a courier, but it shouldn't be good for combat at all IMO.

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Re: Nerfing Springy & Spitfyre for DDTC

Postby Hieronymos » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:47 pm

Rednoahl, thanks for the feedback on Ketral(s). I haven't personally fought against any Kestrels yet while testing--or even before in vanilla play, and so cannot speak from experience on her abilities. But from her original vanilla specs, this ship is a sort of Supership with some wonkyness. As in why even give a fighter with 600m/s a back turret?! Other than another K. there's nothing that can catch her!

But as the vanilla standard for M5 (what we'd call M5+), K. was spec'd uber high. Even at ~400m/s and 1Mj thinner, she's still a super ship. Completely changing her design ethos from a superfast hunter-killer, into what you proposed, a superfast courier, is a no-go for us. DDTC tweaks vanilla specs only whenever absolutely necessary; and then attempting to preserve the spirit of the vanilla concept as closely as possible.

However, the idea of a superfast courier (and/or Scout) M5 is very, very juicy!! Will reccommend we spec one of the new DDTC M5's accordingly.
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Re: Nerfing Springy & Spitfyre for DDTC

Postby Brian5001 » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:16 pm

NO! Not my Kestrel! The 605m/s speed is the only thing about that ship that is worth even getting the ship, IMHO. The only things I use Kestrels for is exploring, recon, and having a ship that can fly way out into space in 30 seconds (IRL with 1000x SETA on) and have something to sit in overnight, while my fleet of trade ships and complexes, do their thing, while I sleep. Don't take this from me... or I'll just have to change it back, in my copy...

The speed that this ship has, defines it's main role, to mess with that speed, is to mess with it's main role. The Kestrel can't carry very powerful weapons, much less fire them often, not to mention that the cargo space isn't enough to make it much of a missile fighter (except against drones). If you nerf the speed, at least make it more maneuverable (that was the trade-off originally).

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Re: Nerfing Springy & Spitfyre for DDTC

Postby Rednoahl » Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:10 pm

Hieronymos wrote:Rednoahl, thanks for the feedback on Ketral(s). I haven't personally fought against any Kestrels yet while testing--or even before in vanilla play, and so cannot speak from experience on her abilities. But from her original vanilla specs, this ship is a sort of Supership with some wonkyness. As in why even give a fighter with 600m/s a back turret?! Other than another K. there's nothing that can catch her!

In vanilla, the Kestrel is the first ship I go for - it's powerful enough to cap a Nova prototype (I've done it but it only had 30mj of shielding) and to me that's what doesn't make sense. I can see why the nerfs were done - on paper the ships specs don't make sense at all in comparison to the other M5s, but I feel quite strongly that the game needs a quick M5 with decent cargo capacity for personal use and unfortunately at the moment the kestrel is the only M5 that does what I want; I will really miss that 200m/s.

I play a multi-national serial multiplayer game of X3TC, and in that game I would say the Kestral is the second most popular ship in the game - everyone's got one because of its speed. I wouldn't underestimate the kestrel's popularity as a part time player ship.

Hieronymos wrote:However, the idea of a superfast courier (and/or Scout) M5 is very, very juicy!! Will recommend we spec one of the new DDTC M5's accordingly.


That would be a big positive IMO. I actually hate writing about ship balancing and I find it very very difficult to get my point across without offending - I've had arguments before - I won't lie. I don't want to come across as overly negative but I only got about ten hours into the mod before my PC died, but I was enjoying myself, and I really appreciate all the work that has gone into the mod. The balancing done to the springy gets my thumbs up - there was a thirty odd page argument an the ES forum concerning the balancing of the "overpowered" ships - your version of the springy makes the most sense that I've ever read; I actually think it's genius. Thanks for replying so swiftly too.

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Re: Nerfing Springy & Spitfyre for DDTC

Postby Hieronymos » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:54 pm

The issue with the vanilla K. is simple: it totally outclasses all other M5's bar none; and sets the bar for any modded M5's we can produce.

It's practically a supership: 600m/s, good cargo, 5Mj shields and a whopping 13k of laser charge!! It makes a good many M4's quite pathetic by comparison. As in who'd want a Buzzard or a Mako when a Kestral could be had!?!

DDTC's dilemma then became "Do we use Kestral as the bar around which we create (spec) our own M5 and M5+ offerings?" Unfortunately, that bar was set waaaaay too high, and so we took her down a peg to be at least on par with our own offerings. K. is still an awesome ship, and on par with our own Boron Dartfish M5+ http://xforum.chaos.net.nz/viewtopic.ph ... =474#p3359

This was also the approach we took with Springy and Spitfyre: their original specs made them superships. Once you access to them, you could build a fleet around them, and need not look at another M3 or M6.

But your critique has been very useful, and will lead to the creation of a DDTC 'super-scout': an ideal ship for scouting the galaxy map in the early game; with usefulness later as a fleet scout. But with negligible combat oomph.
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Re: Nerfing Springy & Spitfyre for DDTC

Postby Brian5001 » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:45 pm

Then how about this. Nerf the Kestrel's laser charge and shielding, but leave the speed mostly intact... I mean gosh, the Boron Octopus could just about outmatch a Kestrel now... The speed is comparable, the Octopus can only use IREs, but can use 4 (which are deadly against a ship as maneuverability challenged as the Kestrel)... and IMHO, the Octopus is probably one of the weakest M5s in the game... and you want the weakest M5 to have a maneuverability advantage against what used to be a pilotable projectile? You take away the speed of a Kestrel and you are left with a crippled Octopus with better weapons...

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Re: Nerfing Springy & Spitfyre for DDTC

Postby Hieronymos » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:14 pm

You're forgetting the K.'s 13,000 laser charge (changed in 2.5 down to ~2k though!). Adv.K. can mount PRG's up front. 2 PRG's with 13k energy vs. Octo's 4 IRE's and 1,400 energy?! No contest.

Don't worry, you'll get your fast scout. She just won't have teeth like K. We've got a Split M5 in development that just fit the ticket.
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Re: Nerfing Springy & Spitfyre for DDTC

Postby Rednoahl » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:11 pm

Hieronymos wrote:Don't worry, you'll get your fast scout. She just won't have teeth like K. We've got a Split M5 in development that just fit the ticket.

That's me happy then. Thanks for taking my point of view into consideration.

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Re: Nerfing Springy & Spitfyre for DDTC

Postby Hieronymos » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:33 pm

Fyi, Dartfish does ~500m/s--close to the original vanilla K.
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